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Creative Zen Vision:M 30GB
comment: 4 | Wednesday, December 07 (2005) 04:03AM | Posted by Austin Vaughan
Creative Technologies announced a new digital audio/video player today, the Zen Vision M.

• 2.5-inch, 320x240 pixel color screen (18-bit)
• 30gb hard drive
• Plays MPEG2, MPEG4 SP (Divx, Xvid), WMV9 videos
• Plays MP3, WMA, and WMA DRM audio
• Displays JPEG images up to 8 megapixels in size
• Capability to zoom in on pictures
• FM radio, radio recording
• To do list, calander, contacts list
• 3 colors available (black, white, green)
• Battery good for 11 hours music, 4 hours video
• MSRP 39,800 Yen ($ 329 USD)
• Size: 62 × 104 × 19mm, weight: 166g
• Available for sale in late December (Japan only)
Compared to the 30gb iPod, the Zen Vision M is about 30g heavier and 8mm thicker, with nearly the same heigth and width.

IT Media Japan
Press Release (translated)

Thanks, Sameem
Comments

undesign

Comments: 802
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:07AM  

So many features on this thing that the iPoo doesnt have, why even bother getting iPoo over this? Creatives clearly got apple beat with this, anyone disagreeing, is in denial (that means you, Zip22)



pomegranate

Comments: 72
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:08AM  

Creative depress me. Clearly a lot of engineering R&D has gone into this, and in many aspects it's a very well-specced player. Then they have to go and spoil it in just as many ways - much thicker, abysmal music battery life, utterly embarrasing rip-off design. Imagine that spec in the same form factor, but with a distinct design. THAT would be serious competition.
Report card: As last year, Creative simply must try harder.



enigman

Comments: 216
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:26AM  

too bad for creative. they almost copy the design.

That's not creative thinking.



undesign

Comments: 802
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:28AM  

enigman: LOL



vince

Comments: 115
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:30AM  

"So many features on this thing that the iPoo doesnt have, why even bother getting iPoo over this?"

The iPod is cheaper (at least as far as MSRP in Japan goes), has better music playback battery life, and has more aftermarket support. It'll play TV shows that you can buy for $1.99. And the company behind it has decent customer support.



Dr Doom

Comments: 23
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:35AM  

This is pathetic from creative, they've turned into a Ipod rip-off company. Thank god I sold my zen sleek for a 5g ipod.



nashi

Comments: 4
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:45AM  

Personally I am pleased to see Creative bring out a competitor to the iPod Video. As for it being a rip-off/copy, how many ways can you design a DAP with a big screen at the top and controls underneath? You could also say that Apple ripped-off/copied Creative's UI with the iPod given that Creative have been awarded the patent for it.
No aftermarket support, well that might be because Creative build more functions into their players like a radio, voice recording or USB OTG.
And sure the iPod Video has longer battery life for music but this Creative says it lasts twice as long for Video playback and it supports a much wider range of Video formats. Plus if it offers the same ability to swap batteries then playback is even longer.
It depends what features you value most but I think this could be Creative's best effort yet to win customers away from Apple, bring on the reviews.



muikano

Comments: 19
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:52AM  

To enigman and Pomengranate,
Have you guys ever tried to design anything? Have you even thought about trying to make a user interface that is as pretty and as ergonomical as Apple's clickwheel without actually being the clickwheel?

This designer is good. Just think of it from the user point of view. This isn't anything that'll topple Apple--but it IS definitely an improvement over Creative's past designs. What Creative is doing is positioning itself as a competitor to Apple. All it needs is be competitive priced and record companies, Tivo, content providers will soon flock to Singapore whenever Apple doesnt play ball.

But the main thing is usability. You can't compete on price if your dap gives people carpal tunnel syndrome.

Instead of using that ugly C which is great for branding, they've now concentrated on making it usable. Those maxipad wingtips isn't just a good idea, it's an original one and it does the designers great disservice by calling it an ipod ripoff.

But Ipod Killer? What you need is an Itunes Killer.


nashi

Comments: 4
 		Dec 07 (2005) 04:53AM  

Plus it looks like you can output video to an external display and possibly at twice the resolution of the iPod Video.



pomegranate

Comments: 72
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:21AM  

nashi and muikano (btw yeah I have tried designing many things thanks, I could come up with a more distinct look than this, so could Creative but they're not trying because they're trying to get sales from imitating the iPod style, which is unneccessary and that's why it's sad), get a grip:
A player doesn't have to be white. It doesn't need to have an exact 2:1 height-width form factor ratio. It doesn't need to have curved, soft corners. It doesn't need to have a black-on-white menu interface with a blue selection bar. It doesn't need to have a green battery icon in the top-right corner.
There are many other great looking players that don't look anything like the iPod. Stop being apologists.



undesign

Comments: 802
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:35AM  

pomegranate: i take it youv got at least a diploma in graphic design and some (or lots) of experience in GUI Design? Sounds like youv got a resume thats ready to be dropped off at Creative, why dont u do us a favor: apply, do some work (assuming u know how) and come back to us with your wonderful creation thats so innovative and something Creative would be proud of, whilst blowing away thousands of dollars in hiring you for your handicapped pedestrian expertise in this field.

I doubt you got any kind of knowledge on how to, not only do a proper layout, but icon design as well. You think its easy? Give me a break, i doubt youd get anywhere near where the current designers are which work for apple, sony, creative, samsung, etc, etc, etc.



pomegranate

Comments: 72
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:47AM  

The green one is fine, though. It's just the white one really. Unfortunately that's the one they're focussing on.



Cole

Comments: 12
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:50AM  

who bother with removable battery, thickness does matter.



bumper

Comments: 15
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:52AM  

I do bother with removable battery!
Being 19 mm is not thick for me at all



_Ender

Comments: 50
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:54AM  

judging from the past creative players we will probobly see all 10 colours. That would be cool! I do not think white is in anymore. When all iPods were white ppl had no choice...
Look at how background light on the display can be set to match colour of casing. I like how they took care of such details.
Very interesting player.



pomegranate

Comments: 72
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:00AM  

Jesus, get a better argument. It doesn't matter what I could design. A 10 year old could design a more distinct (not better, just different) with his crayons. It's not a matter of ability or a massive amount of effort, but of willingness and pride.
The design of the white ZVM apes the iPod in many aspects. You would have to be blind to deny this. Just look at some other players by major manufacturers and find one which looks more like the iPod than this. There isn't one, IMO.
There are many players which look very nice without looking this much like the iPod - the Sony NW-A3000, the Philips HDD6330, Gigabeat F-series, Rio Carbon and Nitrus. Don't you see my point?


JrezIN

Comments: 70
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:22AM  

What matters, IMHO, is:
MSC?
Gapless?
where's vorbis support?
OTG playlists?
folder navigation too?

...and the battery life could be better for audio playback... but it doesn't look right compared to the video playback one (wich is good). Can someone check on this?



nashi

Comments: 4
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:53AM  

Don't quite see why this debate has got so personal.
My earlier point was just to get some balance into the suggestion that Creative copied Apple by pointing out that the iPod is not a completely original Apple design. Apple didn't invent MP3 players. The GUI design was not their's. Clickwheels had been around before the iPOD. Apple were not the first to add picture viewing or video playback to an MP3 player.
What Apple have done is to bring together all the elements needed for a successful DAP including the software into a seamless package. That has been their biggest innovation. Not inventing each element but combining them all and making sure that the sum of these parts is greater than the whole.
I am sure that someone could design a cool looking, unique DAP but could it be mass-produced cheaply in the far east, could it withstand daily usage.
Now that the iPOD is the clear market leader it is not surprising that other DAP designs are influenced by it. The iPod experience is what most customers now expect and companies like Creative need to respond to customer expectations if they are to succeed in winning back some ground from Apple.
There are some far eastern companies that try to copy various IPod models exactly but I do not think that Creative is doing this. I think they are trying to produce a DAP that has the strengths of the iPod without being a complete copy. This is quite a design challenge in itself.
Most of the more original (ie not iPodesque) DAP designs have not succeeded in terms of sales. Look at Rio - great products, many unmatched features, unique designs and yet still went down the pan.



muikano

Comments: 19
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:53AM  

First off all, there's no need for namecalling. Or indirect namecalling. I'm looking at you undesign.
How it looks is SUBJECTIVE. Distinctiveness for distinctiveness sake is pretty counter productive too, you know.

I'm not commenting on anything but the tactile interface. The GUI is practically universally implemented.

The question is: Is the tactile interface better than the previous Creative controls? Is it sleeker, smoother, better looking and easier to use?

Those wings are very clever way of adding two more buttons without cluttering up the aesthetic.

The Gigabeat may look nice with the t touchface but it's unfriendly to the consumer. Distinct doesnt make it usable. And usability is the very first priority.

I don't think the Vision looks too bad myself. If it was a 4gb flash device, i would buy it. Well, think about it anyways.



onelasttime

Comments: 35
 		Dec 07 (2005) 07:03AM  

"So many features on this thing that the iPoo doesnt have, why even bother getting iPoo over this? Creatives clearly got apple beat with this, anyone disagreeing, is in denial (that means you, Zip22)"

Possible reasons:

- It seems quite large
- Creative doesn't have a good reputation for good touch-sensative controls, Apple does
- It's design is boderline copycat-It's apparently more expensive
- Creative doesn't market well enough for many to even consider this



micha10589

Comments: 5
 		Dec 07 (2005) 07:13AM  

I am an addicted Apple user and still I find this straightforward "me too"-approach (marketing term for copycats) by Creative quite intriguing. Design is not bad (like the matching color of the display background) and so the Creative plusses over the iPod stand out.

I hate the restrictions for video formats on the iPod (video). Also, I really would like to have an FM tuner on an iPod.

So, if it weren't for the fantastic user experience with iTunes I would definitely consider buying this instead of the iPod (I was planning on getting one in the spring, when the mad rush is over and quality control presumably a bit better).

Still, my hope is that Apple adds some video formats in the future.



Donnie

Comments: 247
 		Dec 07 (2005) 07:34AM  

Creative should trim down their lines to be successful (other than being offered at Wal-Mart). I like this player, it's flexible and has a removable battery (like all good players do, or if not, should have). I'm not interested in paying $2 for a half-hour/hour program, but as far as shows recorded, it'll be money well saved, although I'd rarely use the video function.

But the design, who cares. White earbuds and headphones came from the early to mid 1990s, and just to throw this in, Apple could have ripped off of Bang & Olufsen. Haha



YpoCaramel

Comments: 169
 		Dec 07 (2005) 07:40AM  

Well, if you need 60GB, you need the ipod. It's battery life for music is also not excellent, and knowing Creative it might not be MSC, which i personally find nesssasary in a player. It's also 8mm thicker, which is really quite a bit thicker.

Good job though Creative. I really like the colors and the codec support, but it would be jump to assume that this is a ipod video killer.



Steve

Comments: 1197
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:02AM  

As a biased anti-ipodder I have to say I don't find it disturbing in the least that it looks something like the ipod. Look, Apple doesn't own white, they don't own a specific height X width, they don't own 2.5" Lcd's etc. Some people seem to think that everyone should go out of their way to avoid making their players look like the ipod. Sorry, I find it a little hard to feel sorry for poor Apple with 75% market share. It comes with the territory. That and the fact that there's only so much you can do with a vertical format player with the screen on top and controls underneath. Call it a clone if you want but there's plenty that's different too, if you care to look.

It may look like the ipod, but it exceeds the ipod in some significant features. Features which Apple would do well to imitate.



sumguy_

Comments: 293
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:02AM  

There is something odd about the looks. The proportions arent quite right around the screen area.

Of those options, black looks sleekest/best. Green looks alright, but is probably a novelty that will fade into a toy-like look. The white looks quite bad IMO, out of proportion and pseudo-iPod (sorry Undesign, ).

Features look promising, but greater video battery life and lesser music battery life to the iPod suggest that video playback is perhaps compromised in some way... perhaps its just a feat of engineering (or an inefficient Video chip on the iPod), or... [the list goes on].

Despite many more features, the style/type of plastic used, and the thickness, an dplastic back make it somewhat toy-like to me, versus the more gadget-y iPod... but I wont even go into scratching-issues hehe.



broadwayrock

Comments: 32
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:19AM  

I think Creative are taunting Apple with the design of this player.

They are going to wait until Apple tries a lawsuit over this design and then mention the patent they recently won for the interface.

The minute Apple tries to take them to task for this player, Creative are going to say: "dont you owe us some royalties?".

Creative made a very wise choice in including divx and xvid playback and double the battery life for video compared to the iPod equivilent.

The only bad thing seems to be yet another annoying touch strip. I couldnt stand the Zen Micro one.



enigman

Comments: 216
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:20AM  

No more comment



selfnoise

Comments: 18
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:22AM  

Wow... didn't think Creative could do worse but this is some seriously misguided crap. Regardless of the merits of the device it will be seen in the marketplace as an inferior Ipod clone with no movie store support because... uh... that's what it looks like.

I'm intrigued to see how the new control thingy works but gah, what a disaster. Creative needs to make some leadership changes.



peziswonderful

Comments: 42
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:29AM  

Like 99% of the time i'm on the other side of this argument, but seriously creative...WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? I mean okay maybe it is difficult (boohoo) to design a player with some sort of touch thing underneath but do you have to make the GUI practicallly identical (green bat. indicator, ble selection bar).

Creative is giving a bad name to other companies who op for original design and better players. This to me falls almost in the category of iPod ripoffs. WTF Creative!?!



stargazer

Comments: 27
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:30AM  

I think any reasonable person would spot more than a passing resemblance to iPod. Does that mean it's a rip-off? Absolutely not. Given that Creative managed to cram in lots more features + more video codec support, I rather like this new player. The thickness does cause concern, but 4 hours of video playback is nice.



Lone

Comments: 973
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:38AM  

What to say that hasn't already been said in this post...

I generally like the looks of this player; personally I think the little controller with the four buttons surrounding looks good (m:robe like), better IMO than the uber-small click wheel.

Of course the audio battery life is absymal, and there doesn't seem to be any "new" features besides video.



Steve

Comments: 1197
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:49AM  

Well I like the rounder corners and the spread-out controls of the Creative better than the more square shape and isolated controls of the ipod, two thing s which make it look frighteningly proletariat.



dal

Comments: 20
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:55AM  


Basically what I want is an ipod with an fm radio (apple don't seem willing to add one, probably because its not a revenue stream). Creative now have such a player - I don't really give a crap what it looks like.
Well done Creative.



Steve

Comments: 1197
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:20AM  

"Hi, do you have the new ipod?"

"Oh, you mean the Creative one?"

"Yes, that's the one."

"Oh sure, right over here."

"Thanks, beauty isn't it?"

"Yes, much better than the old Apple one."


dap_ocd

Comments: 7
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:43AM  

HA Steve I Love IT!!!

I'm personally in love with the Vision:M. I'm just hoping it has a better viewing angle than the Vision. I use mediaPortal as a DVR that automatically converts to xvid. I have ripped all my DVDs to xvid (FairUse BABY!!) and to me, if a player doesn't play Divx or XviD, it's useless. I don't want to have to convert all my stuff anytime I want to watch something!!! I would never buy an iPod anyway, but this would definately kill it for me.

Unfortunately I don't think Creatives gonna make too much off of this one outside of the geek/videophile community. Most of the world (non-geeks) have no idea what XviD is or even what a codec is. They see Apple (which in their minds = easy (kind of like the people who still use AOL)) and they see that they can get the tv shows from iTunes (which regardless of personal opinion, is a pretty simple-to-use music program) without any hassle or required knoledge of geek termonology. No converting, no codecs, just download, sync and play. As much as I personally hate this mentality (I want to be able to do anything i want with my video) this is how most of the world (at least the USA) thinks.

The point is, neither this player, nor any other non-apple dap/pmp will get any kind of useful marketshare until they can develop a busness model similar to this. I don't know who said it here, bnut they were right - "They don't need an iPod killer, they need an iTunes killer"



HeartOfDarkness

Comments: 6
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:46AM  

There also seems to be two more colors, pink and light-blue, at least in the works, most probably targeted to specific markets.

Now, which markets ?

Colors here .



bumper

Comments: 15
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:47AM  

))



YpoCaramel

Comments: 169
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:48AM  

Actually, i think the nongeek world might like this more becomes they have no idea what encoding is, and having videos that just PLAY on the player is going to appeal to them.

Please note that i am a ipod with video owner.



iNeo

Comments: 46
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:51AM  

hey guys, i dont know if any of u noticed this ( i didnt read all posts) but look at the image. There is a line in the center. I personally think that that means interchangeable faceplates! they are using their neeon idea, and, if it means that its in the middle, yoiu can have 2 diff colors at the same time!
What do you think?

P.S. And, of course, if you like apple, but want this ones features, paint a clickwheel on top!



iNeo

Comments: 46
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:53AM  

$329.425 is a lot of money O_o



nashi

Comments: 4
 		Dec 07 (2005) 10:08AM  

iNeo you may be right about the faceplates cause I was looking at these new pics and wondering why the green, pink and blue ones still had a white main controller whereas the black one has a black controller. This could mean that there are two main colours, white and black, but you can change the faceplate to other colours although the controller would stay as white or black.



Money4me247

Comments: 38
 		Dec 07 (2005) 11:16AM  

i personally think tat the design is UGLY!!! y does creative always put a dumdum white backplate on their players? they all look liik bars of soap... i hate the creative designs tat r comin out nowadays... micro was okay (because it was so small-but like a bar of soap) but then the big ZEN and the neon both looks out of proportion and stupid. same with this player IMPO



Divideby7

Comments: 3
 		Dec 07 (2005) 11:27AM  

Someone above mentioned that Creative doesn't have as much video support. I'm going to assume that it will be playsforsure compatible with all the video download services (plus subscription music services). [which would give it some pretty good support - i.e movies instead of just a few t.v shows]

I really think Creative needs to exploit this to make this sell.

Yeah its definitely not a hardware issue at this point. The ipod's seamless integration with iTunes is the seller there. Creative needs to focus on partnering and pushing the subscription services.

At least in the non-apple side of things you have a choice with stores....although I would argue that most anyone who has had an ipod will never switch because things are just too easy for them now.



plan17

Comments: 91
 		Dec 07 (2005) 11:54AM  

the only thing that concerns me is ELEVEN hours of battery... no self-respecting DAP these days comes with less than 14/15... 12 is pitiful. tho i think it looks pretty cool. But why bother with this if the iPOd is better in every way?



egloskerry

Comments: 410
 		Dec 07 (2005) 12:49PM  

It's still not gonna sell to that most important of markets: teens. You know what the trendy teen is going to have said to him/her by his/her peers? "Haha your mom bought you an ipod knockoff"

And you know what the teen is gonna say to his/her mom? "I don't care if it is a better mp3 player than an ipod, I WANT AN IPOD"

Every other company needs to focus on the geek and adult markets and leave the teen market to apple, because they are never going to beat something that is already trendy.



egloskerry

Comments: 410
 		Dec 07 (2005) 12:50PM  

Plan17, apparently you didn't read the article. Music battery life and size is the only place that apple beats this.



ZaphodB
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Comments: 129
 		Dec 07 (2005) 01:55PM  

Also interface, software, and the whole music/video store integration thing. And photo viewing - this thing can only use JPEGs, for some reason. Oh, and it's more expensive than the iPod, too.

But you're totally right, other than those things, the Vision:M beats the iPod in every way. Yep.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 01:56PM  

How thick is this player with regard to the sleek and other players? I know its apparently twice the thickness of the 5g ipod, but is that even thick?



Allen
Location: Dub Vee Ooo
Comments: 1511
 		Dec 07 (2005) 01:59PM  

Well.. it will be interesting to see how this player turns out.... as always the enemy of your enemy is your friend... so with that in mind, GO CREATIVE!



kineticarl

Comments: 31
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:05PM  

It seems to me that Creative probably had this player in design long before the new iPod was released. They couldn't have designed it and put it into production since the vid ipod has been released, could they? the height/width dimension is pretty standard among HDD daps, though creative definitely should have strived to make this portly player a little more supermodel skinny. I wonder if the two new buttons on the touch strip will be prone to accidental depression.

I'd rather see a small interface on the bottom of the player, and the tallest screen possible. For navigating menus, more can be fit on the screen. For video viewing, the player would be turned sideways, so you can watch video in widescreen.



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:07PM  

zen sleek: 17.1 mm
zen touch: 22.5 mm
x5: 14.3mm (actually 18.3mm at the hump)
x5L: 18.3mm (22.3mm at the hump)
ipod 30gb: 11mm
ipod 60gb: 14mm

zen vision:m : 19mm



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:12PM  

Thanks. That is fairly thick I guess. What the hell did they put in it to make it so thick? I mean if the X5L is thinner yet has two batteries in it.



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:17PM  

yeah thats why i was confused. and the battery life sounds like its the same as or less than the regular x5



rhymesgalore

Comments: 14
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:20PM  

ssjmichael, i think you misread something.
The zen vision :m isn't as thick as the x5l, that would be the zen touch.
so the zen vision is as thick as the x5 at its hump.
But still the battery life remains pathetic.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:32PM  

Zip posted the X5L is 18.3mm while the Zen Vision:M is 19mm's



Allen
Location: Dub Vee Ooo
Comments: 1511
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:47PM  

Something doesnt add up... thats all I will say... hopefully time will clear up this fuzzy thing..



Matt Random

Comments: 16
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:52PM  

Vision:M Pros: format support, video battery life, Plays For Sure, removable battery (?), FM Tuner, USB Host (?)

IPod Pros: ITunes, trendy/word of mouth, better price, good support, aftermarket parts, thickness

Unfortunately, the average consumer isn't going to understand many of the benefits of the Creative player. Generally, they won't notice what is missing from the IPod (FM & USB host) until they have bought it (the average consumer doesn't analyze specs). If they feel they need this feature then they can buy an add-on - and carry a very large bag to hold everything. As long as iTunes does format conversions under the hood most users won't care - and won't even be aware that something happened and therefore won't need to have the knowledge how to make it happen (remember that the average consumer wants simple).

This model looks to be a 'me too', which is fine, but it lacks one significant factor that makes a 'me too' successful - price. If the average consumer is comparing the iPod and Vision:M in a store they will most probably go with the iPod since it is an iPod and it is actually cheaper (no need to consider the 'me too' model).

Personally, I'd like a video capable DAP with a 2+" screen that features a screen-centric form factor (total size not much larger than the screen), FM tuner, good battery life, USB host, decent capacity and rich format support.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 02:58PM  

As far as pricing goes, no one knows what the price will be when it actually arrives in N. America. I thought it converts to 329, but is that the definitive price? I doubt this thing will have a usb host or removable battery but who knows.

If they're smart they'll sell this damn thing for 289.



Flid

Comments: 262
 		Dec 07 (2005) 03:57PM  

Too fat AND pitiful battery life.
... something just doesn't add up there.
Yes... it has more features than an iPod, but that's nothing exceptionally new for the rest of DAP world.
I can't stand that horrible "groove" along the front either.
I need to have a play with that new click-strip though.



khbaur330162

Comments: 52
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:02PM  

Nice screen, so so battery life but if it's removable, I'd rather have that because I could replace it if it ever goes bad. I could also keep a spare to double playback length. How is this an iPod ripoff? It's just like their micro/sleek/touch. I'm not sure why they made the TOUCH strip wider than before, but it looks awkward.

"It'll play TV shows that you can buy for $1.99."

Ok.... this can play almost everything else. Video codec support on the iPod is laughable so don't go there.


All in all, I like this better than the iPod I think. Let's hope the plastic they use isn't rubbish from a trash bin like another DAP I know... Also, some1 said Apple customer service is good. Creative is the same if not better. I believe Creative customer support is believe to be topnotch.


hjj

Comments: 15
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:11PM  

Guys, process what you read..
It won't be $329 and even if it was, it would still be cheaper than the ipod because you dont need to buy things that should be included.



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:16PM  

like what? a power adapter? that would make the prices equal.



Radical Conformist

Comments: 148
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:16PM  

This is the player Creative should have launched before the iPod 5G.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 05:50PM  

Yeah if they had designed it before the 5g ipod was released.



nomad

Comments: 8
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:00PM  

Here's a question: I have a big music collection, I'm running up against my 40gb limit on my current creative. When will they ever come out with another 60gb? Why must it be 5g after 5g?



Matt Random

Comments: 16
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:14PM  

True, the $329 is a converted price. The US price has yet to be announced but I feel that it'll need to be at least 15% less than an iPod ($255) to get the average consumer to take a look. I've watched people at Best Buy. The non-iPod DAPs are largely ignored and the employees seem uninterested in them.

I'm not a fan of Apple but I have to admit that the iPod reputation is very compelling. People recognize the Apple name. People trust Apple. The iPod is everywhere. The iPod is seen as a quality player and everything else is seen as a knock-off, which is certainly not true but that unfortunately is the general sentiment. It is no wonder that all the other DAP manufacturers are having a hard time grabbing market share.

This model is compelling enough that I'll delay my decision on which DAP to buy until I've had a chance to check it out in person. Format support and an intergrated FM receiver are important to me.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:14PM  

Maybe they will have a 60gig version too.



nomad

Comments: 8
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:15PM  

I mean, am I the only one out there who needs memory? Everyone's been doing 5g for 2 years now. Would it really kill them to replace the xtra? wtf?



nomad

Comments: 8
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:17PM  

Oops, I didn't see your post.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:21PM  

Hey Matt Random get an X5



Matt Random

Comments: 16
 		Dec 07 (2005) 06:35PM  

Ssjmichael, I've researched the X5. The audio quality and feature set seem great but the screen resolution and screen size are a little smaller than I'd like (yeah, I'm picky). Unfortunately, no one sells it locally so I can't do a hands on test (very important to me). Now if an X6 came along with a screen comparable to the iPod video or iRiver U10 then I'd probably jump at it.



painkiller

Comments: 109
 		Dec 07 (2005) 07:01PM  

Yeah, so what if its an iPod ripoff. I don't really care, but it might get really annoying when everyone asks me if it's an iPod or not.

The best part I like about this is the divx and xvid support, and it has twice the video battery life than Apple's. Sweet.

By the way, the price will probably be lower in US. I doubt it'll be higher than $300 when it comes to America...



iNeo

Comments: 46
 		Dec 07 (2005) 07:34PM  

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fjp.creative.com%2fcorporate%2fpressroom%2fartworkproduct.asp%3fpid%3d14331


babeled. PICTURES OF IT! OH YEAH! (if this was posted before...sorry)



superpianist
Location: Montreal
Comments: 17
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:42PM  

I have a Creative Zen Touch (remember it?) and was looking to get a nice media player with the same form factor (I already have a really, really old PMP called the RCA RD2780) that isn't an iPod. Creative really screwed up consumer support with the Touch, which makes me inclined against buying Creative again anyway, but also this thing is the same price as an iPod. That was the draw in the first place! Really the only alternative is the iAudio X5. Creative really needs to do something different...

I like this player, and I like my Touch (GREAT sound quality and the battery is insane) but when you lose the battery life, price advantage, and consumer support you have another failed me-too player. As much as I like my Zen Touch, it failed, as did the Neeon and Sleek. What was the only Creative player that got people excited? The Vision, because it was different, innovative, and worked well. I like Creative but they gotta price this competitively (USD 275 or lower, preferably lower) and fix the damn battery. I'm rooting for them, but it's not looking good.

Also, when I use my Zen Touch (aka all the time) I get people asking "what is that?" or "what kind of iPod is that?" It's a little annoying because I can't go ranting about how it's better or I look like a weirdo, but it does get noticed even though it looks similar.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 08:48PM  

I don't think the Zen Sleek failed at all. I think its actually doing much better than I expeced it too. Also the Zen Micro Photo is doing good as well, and so has the Zen Micro in the past. I'll agree that the Zen Touch and Neeon were failed products.



superpianist
Location: Montreal
Comments: 17
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:09PM  

Yeah, I guess the Sleek is selling okay, but it still gives Creative this "slightly behind the curve" image, when companies like iAudio, iRiver, and even Sony are pushing boundaries. My Zen Touch blew me away with sound quality and 24-hour battery life, and I want Creative to succeed here. I love the look of that click strip (or whatever they call it) and the colors are really nice (I like the black best, personally), but I'm right in their target audience (don't want an iPod, did like previous Creative players, looking for a non-PMP media player) and they haven't convinced me with this Vision:M. The site does say 14 hour battery, not 11, and I'm sure the screen is really nice, but it's gotta be priced below USD 300 and they have to advertise properly.

I think the problem is marketing. The iPod has a huge market share, and the other players that have succeeded have all played to some other strength, like the X5 and Rio with audiophiles, or the Zen Micro with vastly superior features, or the U10 with styling and "wow" factor. I know it's got some differences, but the Vision:M is clearly competing in the same space as the 5g iPod, and I don't think it can succeed.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:17PM  

Funny thing is, I doubt most people are going to drop the m and just call this the Vision. It was a bad name in my opinion. They should've went with my speculated name of Zen MicroVision. The ZMV that plays WMV's. Seriously someone needs to hire me.



SowndOfDeth

Comments: 417
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:21PM  

Judging by their previous product launches. This one will be released by the time ipod v6 is released (or is it released already? )



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:24PM  

huh, it does say 14 hours now. good catch superpianist.



Michael
Location: New York City
Comments: 2798
 		Dec 07 (2005) 09:32PM  

Sweet.



Kasuran

Comments: 1
 		Dec 07 (2005) 10:37PM  

Um... Creative you're starting to become lame. 100% ripped right off of Apple's stat sheet. Other than width the same size? Go figure. Only pros about this: Excellent sound quality (as with all Creatives) and more features (just about everyone has more than iPod). The fact that the design division at creative is still chucking out stones is rather unappealing. I figured they'd learn by now that thick isn't good. The Zen Sleek I thought would be the start of a newer line of Creatives that were thinner and lighter. Certainly possible as proven by iPod. Until they sort out those issues with the design, Creative will be iPod's only competitor. This player won't live up to anything. Another big, bulky, and ugly mp3 player churnned out by Creative. I imagined something along the lines of the micro in terms on interface but this is just ridiculous. An egg in the middle and a ditch running across the front. Please Creative, just try something new. (And charge lower for this thing damnit! You aren't gonna sell any of those at that price.)



YpoCaramel

Comments: 169
 		Dec 07 (2005) 10:40PM  

I don't think the Zen Vision:M is better in every way, but it is a great player. A bit too thick for a 30gb player most ipod video, and questionable MSC abilities are what knock it fo rme.



3284lmm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Comments: 358
 		Dec 07 (2005) 11:09PM  

I've been thinking about this thing all day, here’s what I think: it’s a solid player, but I don't think it’s a blatant rip off of the ipod G5 (exterior). Here’s my reason why, look at the zen sleek or the zen micro form factor; they both utilize the whole front face plate of player (tactile or touchpad = screen) this way there are no buttons on the side on the player to full around with making it much more simplistic to the average user. Now, if you enlarge the screen (2.5in) then of course you're going to end up with a form factor that looks similar if not identical to the ipod G5's form factor. The size of the buttons/touchpad will also take advantage of this extra space and it too will enlarge (also so it doesn't look out of proportion with the rest of the player) If you think about it, the latest Zen players have a similar layout to the ipod, hold switch/headphone jack on top and controls on the front ONLY. I think it’s an excellent idea, and it shows Creatives efforts to make things more user friendly and less intimidating while offering more features and a more flexible interface. I'm not really impressed with the control layout as i have seen they have arranged the buttons in awkward positions, it looks as if the back and forward buttons could possibly interfere with the touchpad. The new "forward" buttom on the right hand corner almost makes it look more complicated than it has to be. Overall I think they would have been a lot better sticking the "zen micro" layout on this beast, but then again I’ll have to play around with this thing before I can comment on the efficiency of the control layout.
I do however feel that the "greater than" sign with the white back round/blue highlight in the interface gives the player an impression of a "ipod knockoff status” fortunately multiple color variations are allowed in the UI so it doesn't have to be white/blue. The interfaces are similar but the Zens interface is clearly better for user that demands/expects more customization and functionality in an interface. The two interfaces really remind me of Windows OS vs. Mac OS, Mac geared more towards simplicity and a clean design but also taking away much functionality while windows is gears towards more freedom (customization), Also Mac (ipod) has the “linear” interface while windows (Zen) has the two click (submenu) which allows shortcuts, search functions.. etc.

I think the projected battery life is more than adequate to get through a day with having to worry about a recharge. I don't quite understand how Creative claims 4hour battery life when playing movies and a 14hours battery life when playing audio when the ipod g5 has half the video playback time but yet a couple more hours of audio playback. Of course max battery life depends on bit rate, codec etc.

If Creative can add a removable battery (hopefully this is why is thicker than the ipod g5) and a price under $300 (competition + getting attention) and line out then I think they have a winner in their hand. I don’t think it will be an ipod killer but its just another step closer, hopefully more people will begin to Creative Daps to be more than just an “ipod knock off” but a worthy competitor that gives more for your dollar.

I think Creative will do better than expected with the Vision:m. I hope this will help drive Creative farther into the dap market, and also pay off some of that debt As for me I think I’m going to wait till the Zen Sleek Photo comes out as I can only guess pricing will be around 250$ 



note: don't go onto the engadget Zen Vision:m blog all the Apple Zealots are having a KKK rally and ignorant bigots like Kasuran are tossing up worthless shit, as usual. "they copied this and that bitch bitch bitch..."



3284lmm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Comments: 358
 		Dec 07 (2005) 11:25PM  

sorry for the confusion, made some mistakes (small grammar errors too) " The new "forward" buttom on the right hand corner almost makes it look more complicated than it has to be." - I meant to say upper left hand corner.


Kasuran: Who the hell cares about size anymore, as long as its not as big as the Zen Xtra then it can probably fit into your pant pocket, unless your one of those teenaged trendwhores who wears acid washed skin tight jeans... oh wait i'm guessing you own an ipod... nvm no assumptions made

Secondly, when did they release pricing for the US?... maybe i'm missing something. When did you get a chance to use the new vision:M? .........



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 07 (2005) 11:40PM  

the ipod is close to half the size. that is very significant.

we are just using the price posted and converting. it is a very poor comparison to say the least, but its all we have. i think most of us realise it will probably be priced below the ipod.

if anything, i though Kasuran showed he wasn't ignorant. he didn't even seem to like the ipod, more just hate creative for not making this thing better. if anyone was a bigot, it was you.



3284lmm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Comments: 358
 		Dec 08 (2005) 12:04AM  

"Creative you're starting to become lame. 100% ripped right off of Apple's stat sheet. Other than width the same size? Go figure. Only pros about this: Excellent sound quality (as with all Creatives) and more features (just about everyone has more than iPod). The fact that the design division at creative is still chucking out stones is rather unappealing. I figured they'd learn by now that thick isn't good."

do i need to give the definition of biggot? for your sake i will:

One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own - source dictionary.com

As you can see from the excerpt above Kasuran comments were extremely exaggerated. His focus seemed to be more about what ipod can do and how its very slim, the ipod is slim because the battery is soldiered into the player anyone can do that... more:

"Another big, bulky, and ugly mp3 player churnned out by Creative."
" 100% ripped right off of Apple's stat sheet."

right zip, can we read for conent this time, and not for key words such as love and ipod


Where was I the bigot, other than my trendwhore joke ( wink = sarcasm/joke) hmm... time to hit the books again?


zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 08 (2005) 01:19AM  

3284lmm wrote ...
Apple Zealots are having a KKK rally and ignorant bigots like Kasuran are tossing up worthless shit, as usual. "they copied this and that bitch bitch bitch..."


and the piece you posted. both are very bigoted statements in more ways than one. tell me where Kasuran was "intolerant of opinions differing from his own". he was merely stating his opinion. you're the one who made a point to say he was stupid and wrong.

and if you cannot see at least some apple influence in the design, you are missing something. for the most part, i would tend to agree with Kasuran. creative has usually does something a little different design wise. this one is much much closer than ever before.



undesign

Comments: 802
 		Dec 08 (2005) 01:59AM  

the ipod video is huge, wide, and long, difficult to put it into your pocket. who fucken cares if its thin if u cant easily carry it around. for now, the Sony NW-HD5 is the best size for 20+ gb mp3 players (and also boasts a removable battery).



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 08 (2005) 02:13AM  

wide? its 1mm wider than the NW-HD5
huge? its actually smaller than the NW-HD5

it is indeed taller than the NW-HD5, though. i'm not sure how that effects its pocketetability.

its too bad all sony players fail miserably on the software side.



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 08 (2005) 02:14AM  

not to mention that you can't buy the battery anywhere (at least that i could find)



jgiam

Comments: 7
 		Dec 08 (2005) 07:08AM  

Photos + some info


3284lmm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Comments: 358
 		Dec 08 (2005) 07:17AM  

zip22, what i had wrote at the bottom "Apple Zealots are having a KKK rally and ignorant bigots like Kasuran are tossing up worthless shit, as usual. "they copied this and that bitch bitch bitch..."
was not ment to be an exageration or an opinion of my own, its a fact. Go over and check the blog, did you before you decided to qoute me and tell me different, please read through all 200 posts and tell me what you hear from the apple zealots other than they stole this and that. Most of the poeple on there are regular posters, easy to deciper whos who.... (if you know what i mean)



hjj

Comments: 15
 		Dec 08 (2005) 07:33AM  

zip22 will you ever go out? (.. spare me your lectures about how you have a life ..)

It's looking better now that it seems the battery lasts for 14hrs for music, thats only one hour less than the 30gb iPod.
It only loses slightly in battery life and size, otherwise it seems to be better than the ipod, to me.



Who ME

Comments: 41
 		Dec 08 (2005) 08:54AM  

[Linky]



zip22

Comments: 1817
 		Dec 08 (2005) 11:06AM  

3284, you still haven't shown how Kasuran was a bigot and you weren't. your responses define bigot. he was just stating an opninion.



Matt Random

Comments: 16
 		Dec 08 (2005) 12:41PM  

Now posted on the Creative website. US price is listed as $329.99 (out of stock). No mention of a removable battery or USB host/camera connection.



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TheDarkSide
Damn Step, now you got me all jealous!!!

Step666
I've found my new phone!

[Linky]

TheDarkSide
Unfortunately I need to carry a convergence device at work, as I might be listening to music and miss a call since I can't hear my phone ring/feel it vibrate. That's why it's such a big issue w/me - a call to an emergency might mean life or death. If I'm using a stand alone device it could prove disastrous.

Step666
It's the hardware that I like, the premium feel and decent all-round spec.

Sure, it's not perfect - I'd prefer a dedicated camera button and an HDMI-out but nothing out there ticks all the boxes.

As for multimedia, it's not really something I ever use my phone for so I can't comment on that.

TheDarkSide
It's the only phone that does multimedia right, and for a LOOOOONNNNGGGG playback time. Plus that display,.....

Step666
@Saijin: I'm really quite anti-Apple and even I'm considering getting an iPhone4

TheDarkSide
@Saijin: So did I,.......

Saijin_Naib
Thought you'd never touch an Apple product again?

bloodycape
This new Samsung Orion CPU sounds interesting. Suppose to be like the dual core version of the Hummingbird cpu.

bloodycape
Yeah I saw that, hopefully Tegra2 is good with battery life. Did the devices with og Tegra cpu get good battery life?


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